E12: Parenting Through The Silence ft. David Ryall (part 2)

Silence can be louder than any sound you’ve ever heard, and for parents facing stillbirth, that silence doesn’t end when you leave the hospital. Today we hear from David Ryall, a bereaved father living in Australia, sharing the story of his son Daniel (Danya), born in Bali, and the surprising way love can show up right beside shock, grief, and disbelief.

David walks me through the day everything changed at 36 weeks, the moment a home Doppler revealed nothing but quiet, and the rush to a hospital confirmation that no parent is ready for. We talk about the real decisions that come next: induction, pain, recovery, and how to stay present with your partner when your own heart is breaking. He also shares what helped them meet their baby with care, including friends who brought music, midwives who created space, mantras that rose naturally in the room, and the choice to capture photos and videos as memory making after pregnancy loss.

Because this is Dad Always, we name something that often goes unspoken: support for dads after stillbirth. David explains why practical action felt grounding rather than traumatic, how cultural rituals in Bali shaped his acceptance, and why the work of “taking care of my son” didn’t stop after birth. We also explore how sound and silence shape grief, including a nearby newborn they nicknamed the “baby duck,” and how hope for future children can return even in the middle of loss.

If you’re navigating baby loss, supporting a grieving partner, or looking for bereaved father resources, this conversation offers honest companionship and concrete perspective. 

Subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more parents can find Dad Always. You can also visit the Dad Always website to explore support options and download the SURVIVE guide, a free resource for dad's navigating baby loss.

Theme Music: "Love Letter” was created using AI as a creative tool, with lyrics and direction shaped by the personal experiences and emotional intent of the host.

Little Star - the actual rendition on the day of Danya's cremation ceremony in  Bali, sung by his parents and those who love him (obtained with permission from David Ryall, Danya's dad).

Show Music from Soundstripe

If We Could Let Go by Kurtis Parks

Never Let You Go by Emorie

Related Episode:

Parenting Through The Silence (part 1)

Transcript

Staying Present Through Farewell

SPEAKER_03 0:00

The challenge of the experience was knowing that we wouldn't see him again. Two aspects of fathership that came up for me. One was because his body had been cold, because I when they bought him, I guess he was still in that ice chest at some point. When they put him in the coffin, he was all laid out beautifully. And his body was cold and he had the humid air. So at some point I noticed that all this condensation was on his face. And so just as we were seeing there, found some tissues, just mopped that off. And that was one of the fatherway aspects, but the second part was the watching over. It's like this is my son is going off into the air, is what he's leaving. I'm not turning away at any point. I'm gonna be here with him as he goes. Actually knowing that he wasn't just buried, and that we got to see him burn and most of him go into the sky and just a little bit of ashes from rain, and we're giving close to the ocean later. Just actually letting go of everything of him physically was a very healing process for us because it was I think if we held on to any part of him, we would have got too focused on the atoms and not on what he actually was. Because he wasn't just you know, it wasn't just the flesh kind of thing, that was a piece of it, but it that's not doesn't encapsulate him, and we didn't want to get caught up in that. Personally that was our thing with not wanting to get caught up in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Shining stories come and go, I commercial. Shiny, don't fish all the I don't shiny stories coming.

Why Bali’s Cremation Fit Their Family

SPEAKER_00 5:20

That's a perspective that I don't often encounter because the perspective that is most common to when I've been with families who have had to make those type of decisions, choosing between the burial versus the cremation. There's usually the man, the thought of my loved one being in a box in a furnace, that's just not okay. But I am captivated by what you've just described, which is this open-air setting, and you watched the whole thing. This wasn't something that was done to your point after everyone had gone home. You were there.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And presumably were the other people there also? Like everyone who had been there the whole time?

Rituals That Make Space For Grief

Letting Go Without Losing Connection

SPEAKER_03 6:11

Yep. There were been well over a hundred, maybe even two hundred people at one point. Right, right. Because even people from the local village just come down, you know, it's the it's the thing that's happening that day. And they uh probably they're all very connected, you know, the families are big and communities are even bigger, so they can still become down to pay their respects. And it's just a ton of people. So when there was two other people being cremated that day, there was just a lot of people there to support the process. And for them it's their culture, it's their daily life, their daily existence. This is it's a you know, seven-day a week operation, it's not it doesn't stop except for that one special day. So they're that's what they're used to. And I think again, maybe partly because I've been there that long and partly because I just he was conceived in Bali. He was born in Bali, died in Bali. We were happy for him to go the Bali way. Even the reflection, to be honest, of this of letting him go physically probably evolved over time in terms of really understanding it, really leaning into that idea, because I think when the cremation was happening, part of it was just the acceptance of okay, this is the Baliese tradition, and we wouldn't have known what to do with him anyway. Because I understand what you said about even if they can't visit his gravesite, they still want him buried there. Right. For us, it was like he's an Aussie Russian Bali baby. Where would we bury him? That wouldn't make sense. And so I think the Croatian just can intuitively made sense because it's like, okay, at least if we take at that time we were thinking to take some of his oceans to Australia, leave Southern Bali, take some to Russia, and that would have felt good. But what we eventually came around to was actually just giving them to the ocean because there's water everywhere. There's oceans everywhere. Anytime we want to see them we can get to a nation. And we were content with that idea. But I think it really simplified for us when the midwife Robin created had taken his umbilical cord with our consent and created a dream catcher with his dehydrated umbilical cord in the center, like his eye, and given that to us as a gift. And that's something that she's done before for living babies. It was the first time she'd done it for a stillborn. And what we found happening a week or two later is when we were carrying this around, it was you know, we had in our house, it was beautiful. And at some point either Angelina or I, one of us, referred to it as Dunya. We said our baby's name about the umbilical cord. I was like, oh hang on, this is no, it's not him. It's his umbilical cord, it was definitely a part of him, but it's not him. And that was when we were deciding what to do with the ashes because we haven't quite figured that out yet, but that's when we were like, okay, maybe we actually need to just give all of it to the ocean. And even so we ended up this was a few weeks later once we figured this out, actually burning the umbilical cord too, just with two baloney swings down in the ocean, putting it in with the overall ashes, and then giving all of it to the ocean. Except for one piece that came in later. There was some clips of hair seen on the day of his birth, which we'd forgotten about. They're in an envelope somewhere, we found them. We went, oh buggers, we didn't give this to the ocean. Fortunately, Angelina's mum had come to Bali and my parents also. And so they got to meet and hang out and they got to be with us. This was a couple weeks after they were scheduled to come anyway, because they were expecting to come after the birth, so we just kept this coming. And when we were going to leave Bali to go to Russia just to travel with mum and you know, be with her on the plane and also catch up with friends there and family. On the day before we left, we got the hair, we went with her mother down to the ocean, we gave away this final piece. And so I guess that ties in with the ritual rituals which was has been kind of part of what's been happening for us. We've had the Balinese rituals of doing separation, doing it their way. But we also integrated our own rituals where even after the birth, after or I guess while we were still at the birthing centre, they had a labyrinth there and a friend taught us a process of the labyrinth. You can walk into them with your whatever you need to, in our case, have grief. Leave it in the center and walk out again and just leave whatever's ready to be left behind. So that was one thing we get to do at the birthing centre because they had a small labyrinth there. When we got home after the birthing centre, our friends had set up uh again in the Valley extradition, just a small altar of flowers that when we arrived home we sat down at and they just played some music for us because music has been such a thing this for us. It was just a way to sue them to play the song that was played in the correction they played when we got home just to welcome us back into the space. A month after his birth we had prepared a life in the Williams celebration for him. We wanted to get together the people that were with us, especially during the birth and also immediately afterwards or surrounding just that whole time. We wanted to get them together just to actually celebrate his life that he did have while he was in Angelina's belly. And so we put together a slideshow just literally, I guess, documenting but just everything sort of just before he turned up and then from conception, from when we found out everything onwards, all the travel that we did with him, all the people that he saw inside the belly. All the people that were excited to meet him, we just documented all of that almost as a love letter to him. But it was also kind of a ritual for us when we were putting it together, we're just crying because we were going through all these photos and going through, like I said, the birth photos and just everything. The whole journey we had had with him when we were talking to him every day as we were travelling around. We were reliving all of that as we put this thing together. And so then when we got everyone together and got to watch this thing with him, it was just for us actually a celebration again of his life. It was still sad, it was still tears. That we wouldn't take back. We appreciate what he's brought to our life. Even all the people that we got connected with from this event has been amazing, even yourself right now. Like this isn't a conversation that we've been having. And I'm glad to be having this conversation. And how this helps other dads, mums, just anyone. Oh, this couldn't have happened. So these bits of rituals have become important to us even and his on the 4th of December was when we found out that Antoine was pregnant of 2025. And so uh 2024 was correct. So 4th of December 2025, we went out to the water, we said hello to him, we honored the anniversary of us finding out that we were parents. And we just we were in Perth at the time in Australia, but again, we just took a little plate of flowers like they do in Bali, we had just a little incense stick. We didn't have a particular religious attachment to it, it was more just a show of respect and just a ritual for us to connect in for a moment of like, okay, one year ago we found out this was happening, now we're at this moment where it hasn't happened, but all this other things have. So just showing ourselves some respect and showing him some respect. When it was his half birthday, the six month birthday again, we went down to the ocean just to be with him for a while. All these little steps would have been like healing steps for us, just stuff that we've done, which has just helped us stay connected, help us allocate time, have time to grieve and just to honor it, so that we're kept unlike just kept not kept him alive, just kept just kept ourselves processing because it's all still sitting there. Like today when I saw this video that I described earlier, like I just cried instantly, and I've been fired and it just bam, it just came out, so it's all there. And so it can either come out randomly when I see something like that, or if we have some special value that we want to acknowledge, at least we can just connect. That's been important for us.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I am so captivated by the spiritual overtone of this entire experience, particularly the aspect of not holding on to and get and and assuming a posture of releasing. And in the releasing, feeling that much more connected. Because one of the things that it's hard for us to do as people is to let go of things, it's to let go of habits. Sometimes it's hard to even let go of certain people. We just don't want to let go. And when when we're faced with a situation, with a set of circumstances like the loss of a loved one, period. But particularly in the case of losing your baby, whom you have not even had the opportunity to hold on to in some type of way for a significant amount of time yet, right? On on this side of existence. And then to have to let go. It can be, I I don't even know what the right uh word is to describe how disjointed that whole reality is or that whole space is. And I'm not saying that you and Angelina were like, oh yeah, this is easy for us to do. I'm just really moved by every step of the way, the care, the thoughtfulness, the nothing that you stated in your story left me wondering, oh gee, I wonder why they did that. Everything just has felt so grounded in in a way that I don't know if I could put my finger on it, but there's something about the way in which you've shared your story that I am really captivated by.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

You know, everything was done. There was nothing more to do at that point except just follow the process. So I just dropped in and bore my eyes out. I had just had this moment where the crying stopped and I paused and I've got the water running on my head. And it's like for him to leave just means there's something else that's coming, someone else that's coming that couldn't have happened any other way. That this need to happen, for that next thing to happen, whatever that is. And I hated the thought. I didn't I did have a resentment to it of like, yeah, but but I also had a piece of the thought of like, yeah, but this is just how it is. This is how it's meant to be, for whatever reason. Maybe it would take a while to figure out what the reason is, but at least just in my version of spirituality, it's like I could just accept, okay, this is is what it is, and I'll know why later. And I I it it's just brought us tighter. This whole I because my one fear that we both expressed to each other is we've known people that have broken up over this thing, and I completely understand why.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Because it's deaf and hard, like it's just hard, hard, hard. And especially things that Angelina has been particularly good at and I learned so much from was there's been times where we're in a different emotional space where I even when we're at the healing center, even as we're leaving the healing center, she was in grief. And for whatever reason, like I for whatever reason, just in the photos of that moment when we're all hugging and everything, I'm smiling. And she's crying and she's fine with it. And it even happened at the hospital. Literally our baby's been born, he's dead. It was just a moment where a photo was being taken and we're looking at the camera, and it's just like, yeah, we're with our son. I'm gonna smile for this. And I genuinely like just felt it's like I'm I was in that very moment, I was just kinda happy. She was grieving, and afterwards I looked at my face, I was like, This is horrific, what's going on, David? Like, dude, what what's wrong with you, but spoke with Angelina, it's like it's okay. At times I'm gonna be sad, you're gonna be happy. You're gonna be sad, I'm gonna be happy. Sometimes we're both sad, sometimes we're both happy, like it's okay. We're just navigating the space. There's no rule for it, and we don't have to be in the same spot, and that's okay. And I just appreciated grace in that because I felt like for a moment about it. But I was like, yeah, it is okay. If it's okay for me, it's also okay for her. If I'm having a bad moment and she's fine. Well, we can be fine and that's okay. I can be feeling bad and that's okay. I think that's helped.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, what you're naming is this uh expectation that because we're both experiencing this, we both have to feel the same way about it every single time. And if we don't mirror each other, then those thoughts start to come in. What's wrong with you? Or no, no, no, what's you're not doing this right. Wait, you must not have cared enough. Or right. And and to have the awareness that we're both uh really trying to do our best within this circumstance. And we might do things differently, but never does that mean that we don't have the same level of care, dedication, or that this doesn't impact us in in the same way. And and I love that that was a uh a realization that that you both came to or that she helped you come to in realizing it's it's it's okay. It's it's all right. Like this is your process.

Unexpected Triggers In Daily Life

SPEAKER_03 21:03

If they're just not meeting each other in the space, or not accepting that they're in different spaces and not able to communicate and talk through it. There's there's literally been times where I'd been crying my eyes out, and she'll just told me. And then afterwards we'll speak about it and be like, hey, what came up? And just talk it through. And then the same the other way where I'll be doing something or you know, just as well behind me turn around, she's crying, I'll just go and sit with her, just hold her. Afterwards, hey, weapon, what came up? And there's just the opportunity to talk it through. And so that I think it's that's been the thing that's made us stronger. We're just leaning into each other, leaning into the grief, talking through whatever comes up to it. You know, it could just be some silly thought, it could be some some very deep thought, whatever it is, it's just thought that's allowed. Today was an interesting example. We we're going to walk a the alchemina. And Smaid with some rear parents later this year. And as part of the preparation for that, we're doing the first aid training today, just because something happens while we're walking with someone, we just want to know how to deal with it. And so we're doing a CPR training and it's got the mannequins. And there's an adult mannequin, it's a baby mannequin. I in today for the most part I was okay with that. I could have detached and I've done the CPR before, so I was kind of just in okay. I'm just a refreshing kind of mode, this is just how it is. I know for Angelina it just immediately like we both looked at each other as soon as the vapor mannequin came out, I was like, okay, this is we're gonna have something here, like something's definitely coming up. But for her, I was just hitting her more. And there was a moment where she just had to leave the room, and also because the trainer was kind of just being jokey with her because you're just dealing with mannequins and he's like, Here's a baby, catch, and you know, just throwing it to someone. Oh, yeah. And yeah, in any other circumstance, I would be laughing along with it. But something that used it actually, I think the other day when we were talking, it's like now that we've had this experience, like we're seeing everything through the lens of loss. And it's like, Oh god, this just doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When Support Systems Ignore Fathers

SPEAKER_03 23:12

And so that was uh definitely rough today, and we got to speak to him about it with the trainer at some point afterwards, and he was very apologetic and just accepting an understanding. He was like, Yeah, I totally get it. And we also said to him, But hey, we don't want you to have to worry about this all the time because this is just our experience. And he was like, Yeah, I get it, but the feedback's still important, so it was a lot of good understanding all around, but it was still just a rough one. I guess the key one here and there it's just been small things which I kind of expected, but still irritating. But I expected where, you know, a week after, two weeks after, getting messages from friends, whoever, or maybe not friends, acquaintances, just people. How's Angelina? And that's that's the first question. How's Angelina? It's like, oh you know, she's alright, I'm okay too. And it's interesting, and some people got like figured it out really quickly, quickly adjusted, and that was fine. Some people didn't figure it out, it's like okay, I just know this is gonna happen. I kind of in part accepted it because I get it as well. Like even just if I think back to me prior to this experience, it's like if I think of my friends have had miscarriages. I've thought about the girl, I haven't thought about the guy, I just haven't seen it, I get it. But it's just interesting to go, okay, this happens a bit. And I guess one of the biggest experiences was more recently when we got to Australia we met our obstetrician here just to do a debrief of the what happened and I still actually wouldn't have told you what happened, but you should do that. But just doing a debriefing thing was like, I'm gonna send you to this hospital, they've got a special program for people that have lost a baby just to talk it all through and go through everything and see if you know you speak to psychologists and speak to doctors and just see if there's anything that maybe you missed or may want to adjust for next time, just whatever, all of it. And so we decided we're going there purely for a lost meeting. We're both there, and the people come in and they're nice to both of us. They you know do all the greetings and that kind of thing, and then they give Angelina this 35 questions questionnaire to check in on how she's doing, what's her mental health, physical health, just all these questions that she's answering. And I'm kind of just like okay. I kind of expect still can't expect it, but it's just weird to experience, you know, all the focus, especially after the birth. Before birth, I get it, like it's her body, the things are going on, everything's gonna be checked in with her, but in this specific meeting where we're meeting about loss, and they're just doing a questionnaire for her because she's the official patient that's been referred. This is a bit weird. And then it was something that annoyed her as well, like each time these things have come up, she's been frustrated by it because for us with pregnancy, we were just a team the whole way, like we were locked in. This is what we were doing together. Even she naturally enjoys cooking, I don't. So by default, she was the natural one before pregnancy and I was cleaning up and doing other things. That all swift pregnancy swaps, sorry, during pregnancy, I was the one doing all of the cash duties and just making everything work and all of that because that's I was becoming father, that's what my job was to look after this thing. So for us it was just a united thing, and so then afterwards just have these pieces of that not being acknowledged for both of us was uncomfortable. And she, when we got back to our obstetrician, raised it and said, Hey, it was good to have this meeting, but this was a weird experience, and if you could give feedback to them, I get that on the patient, but if we're going for a lost thing, we're there together. But just give the paper to paper to both of us, even if you can't do anything for him. It's like he could be the one that's suffering more than me, kind of thing, like you never know. Because I know some dads get hit extremely hard by it. And so just stuff like that, just actually checking in for both sides. I wouldn't say I'm traumatized by it at all, fortunately, because I expected it, but it's still weird to actually experience it.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

It is weird if it's about the pregnancy piece of things. Yes, Angelina is clearly the one who is the patient because of all of the obvious reasons why she's the patient. And now the loss has occurred. She experienced it, and also you experienced it. And so whether she was initially the patient, the baby is not here anymore. We're here for loss. So it it where is the where is the awareness, where's the flexibility, where is the opportunity or or or the option to sort of customize, if you will, things to such a degree that uh it's inclusive of at least or if you want to cap it at the two people who've experienced the loss most intensely, then do that, but not to the exclusion of the male partner just because uh that person doesn't have a medical record number or doesn't have a history in in you know the clinic or the hospital or whatever. Like it it it it seems so obvious, right? I mean it it seems so obvious. And it's just not done.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

When even when we spoke to the obstetrician, she was like, Yeah, she used to work with the doctor that was actually very good even before the birth, sending both parents down there, especially in the dad at 30 weeks, and saying, Okay, have you got questions about what's about to happen? You're about to have a baby, do you have questions to the father? And just actually support him and also give him, you know, find out where his questions are, but then also to directly say, Here's what's about to happen with you, wife or partner or whatever, here's what it's gonna look like leading up to, here's what the labor's gonna look like, here's how you can support, here's what you're gonna have to think about afterwards. So he knows what his role is in it all because she's got to do the birth part, but there's all this other stuff that if you know, if they're an effective team, then he'll want to do these other parts because it's a decent thing. And so that sounded great. But my obstetrician just said that was the only guy that she knew was doing oh, and the person she knew was doing it, and it's probably because he was a guy, so he had thought about this. But even our obstetrician personally wasn't doing it, I think when she was telling this story she was like, Oh hang oh god, maybe I could have changed what I'm doing when I'm working with parents, especially when the dad's always turning up because I've turned up to every single appointment that we've ever had, so it's like maybe getting the dad more involved, and you know, especially as you're getting towards the pointy end of the birth, it's like stuff needs to happen. You've got two people there, like let's split the task load, let's you know, see how things can be sorted out, would just be so much better than definitely in the lost space.

Practical Advice For The Hard Days

SPEAKER_00 31:54

As we come towards the end of our conversation, yeah, you've been through the most unthinkable thing that could happen to anyone. And like we acknowledged before, sadly, there are going to be other families, other dads who will go through something similar. What has your experience taught you now that you are living life having had this experience, that you would want to alert someone who will come after you to be mindful of that that could help them navigate through their experience?

SPEAKER_03 32:42

I think taking leaning into opportunities to uh feel it and where possible, feel it with your partner or and close friends, not, but and close friends and family as much as possible. We had this chapter that I mentioned, we've also had a grief consultant that we worked with, and comments that we got from both of them independently was something they liked. Seeing in us was how much we were prepared to lean in to the grief, lean into the process of just like doing as much as we could to accept the reality of what was going on and just feeling it all, as opposed to pulling back trying to protect, trying to hide and definitely temptations to do that. But each time we've leaned in and just felt it and allowed space for ourselves to do that, it's eased the pain. It's made things just a bit better. And it's funny, even as I say ease the pain, like it's so tempting to hold on to it, but it just doesn't help. Like it just both of us feel so much better when we just ease and relax. We can't bring him back. We'll think about him every day of our life, but we can let the pain go. And just because the pain is gone doesn't mean he's gone, doesn't mean he's out of our hearts, we we can just have less pain. And so each time we get to win into that, we do. I think that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

What has been some of the hardest days for you since losing Daniel? And what have you done to sort of help you navigate those really hard days? Two things.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

One is speaking with friends where we need to, but the main one I guess is actually still speaking with each other. It's like we can't control what triggers us like this thing today with the babies. We couldn't control it, it was happening. We could have caused a drama and stopped the whole thing and got all outraged, but it's like, no, that's like it's nothing help anything. But we just pay attention to each other. Like I knew as soon as the babies came out, I looked at her and she looked at me, and we knew that some energy was gonna happen. So it's just like, okay, this is happening, some energy is gonna happen. Let's just accept, and I think in the hardest days we've had we've just gone back to that, leaning into each other, allowing the tears to come and talking about it, letting it be there, a long space. We're probably fortunate in the life that we have that we're not you know, having this happen when we're into desk at our day job and something comes up and we can't have the space to do it. Although every now and then things have come up where we just haven't been able to feel it in that moment. We're busy doing something, the feeling comes up, it's like, oh shit, it's there, but no, not right now. But later same day, next day, we'll take the time to revisit what came up and just talk it out, feel it out. And if we're not with each other when it comes up, still share it with each other later. There's been times where I know she's being a yacupanitor and she's just on the table and crying. And later on she shares it with me. There was times where I was out and just, you know, doing shopping and something came up. When I get home, I share it with her. So just actually sharing as well as to bottling it up helps. And there was only I think one time where I didn't share for whatever reason, I was just like, oh, I'm just gonna sit with it. But a few days later, I said, Oh no, this feels weird. I gotta share this. I just said, Oh yeah, a few days ago I felt this, I didn't share it with you at the time. She was like, dude, share it with me. But she wasn't upset, she got it. But you know, she wanted to be a part of it, she wanted to feel mechanic, know me. And same for me with her, I wouldn't want her to hold back on it. It's like, yeah, just share it.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

So I think that's the biggest. Yeah, I think that could be one of the hardest things, right? In in the midst of the grief and and the loss and all of the different things that a couple might be feeling after experiencing baby loss, one of the things that seems to get to transform is the way in which couples speak to each other in those moments. And whether or not, because I think there's an underlying feeling of if I say this, if I express myself, if I really let my partner know what's going on, particularly from the male side, if I let her know what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, I'm adding more to her plate, right? She was the one who carried the baby, and she was the one who, and all of those things that are true, but then we tend to conclude in our minds that our opening up to them will be adding more to their plate. And I can't confirm this. Maybe you have uh a thought or opinion about this, but it's my sense, it's my intuition that from the female side, the female partner perspective, they want to know what's happening with us. It's important to them to know that we're also feeling, that we're also impacted for whatever the reasons, but it is important to their healing, it is important to their coping, as well as it's important to us to be able to open up and share those things without the fear of adding or or making a situation that's the most horrible situation already any worse. Like that's literally impossible to make that situation worse than it already is.

Walking The Camino With Other Parents

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Well, I think guys can be naturally stoic, which has its advantages. But if your woman's looking at you and she's in grief and you look like you're just chilling, even if inside something's going on and you're just not expressing it, that can generate a no resentment. Because, like, why is he not in the same space as me? Whereas at least when I open up and share my feelings, it's like, no, no, we're here together. And so it it that's what's like for Angelina and I, that's definitely what's bonded us. Like actually we are together. We're not always in the same space at the same time. But over the trajectory of the days and weeks and months, we're in the same space. And that's come through expressing knowing she knows what I feel, I know what she feels, and so we know that um it is a journey that we're still sharing together. I think if we weren't communicating that, it could easily go down a dark path in terms of the relationship dynamic. So that's been the biggest part. And that's why even with the the way that we met you with this Instagram that we created part of the reason for creating that page is to I guess share some of these thoughts and to share the steps that we've taken with others just in case it helps them as well. It's like and there's the same reason he got his podcasters, like just to let people know what people's experiences in case it helps them with their process, because I'd love people, yeah, even if a dad hears this now and he's like, Oh man, I just haven't been sharing with my lady what's been going on. But they can just have a conversation and he just opens his heart and it just brings connection. And that's what I guess slows down the path, just as a vice point with the communication thing with partners, we uh so before we got pregnant, we wanted to walk or camino together in Spain long walk, or at least I want to walk it. I'd done it twice before, so I said to Angelina, hey, if you don't get pregnant, let's go do this thing. And she was like, Okay, but then we got pregnant, so we cancelled it. But then after the loss, within a few days I was like had this happy sad thought of like, hey, we could do Camino. And because she was an intuitive woman, she was like, Hey, we could do it with others. Take other people that have had the same experience as us. And so that's what we're doing this way with other parents is actually going to walk together. Uh for me, Camino and walking actually walking's been a big part of our process, like just going for a walk with each other for half an hour talking. Um but walking on the Camino over days is a good way of just processing, even if it had nothing to do with loss. Like I've loved it, I've done it twice, it's like five hundred miles each time, six weeks each time. Just walking is an amazing like way of processing thoughts. But then walking in grief with this with the loss that we've gone through and other people have gone through, it's just like I don't know what it's gonna be. I just think it's gonna be nice. Like a cleanse, mental, emotional cleanse. And so that's something we're up to, and I think that's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Like I told you and Angelina, if I lived any closer to where you guys live. I would also be on on that walk because I think it's I think it's an incredible thing, knowing that it's not just because of your lost, but it's something that you guys had planned even before that, as well as we didn't get to talk about this as much, but the the way that music featured in your story, right? I learned that you guys were already wanting for music to be a part of welcoming Daniel into the world anyway. And so in spite of how things played out, it it just felt like all of these things that you already had set in place to then be vehicles to help you cope through and stay grounded in leaning into the grief and the loss and the pain. And you've been able to discover meaning and so much more than meaning and beyond. And and and I think the way in which you and Angelina continue to honor Daniel and his life and his memory, and are open to all of the things and all of the gifts that you've received from him, and you are receiving. There is no doubt that if we could trade all of that just not have him here, that's not even a question. It's the embracing of this is what our life is now, and this is the way that we relate to him now. And I just think it's it's such a powerful way of honoring who you guys are and who he is.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

I think the biggest thing that even came up today is there's there's so many points that we could use as points of resentment if we tried to. And we could be upset about that and resent that in a way because it's like we didn't get it in the way that we wanted. This is beautiful. We've got to have a dual of the players of professional shows amazing. Or during the waiting time and before after just the whole time we had music. There was a card that we received two weeks before the birth from a friend with an image of a mother and child on it. And a friend just gave it to us and we thought that's a beautiful card. We'll write a message and a baby that you'll get to read when he's older. We didn't get to do that, but we did write in the card and we burned it with him. So we still wanted to write a message to him. There's a small part of me that we wanted to begin and represent that and feel angry that you know this card didn't get to use for its intended purpose. But the bigger feeling is like this card turned up and it was amazing, and I got to write a letter to my son and burn it with him as he left so that's kind of weird as much as we can choosing to lean into looking for the good in it. Like you said, we're trying to all of this goodness to have them in our arms. But if we can't be in our arms, we can at least try and appreciate the goodness and have that be fuel for keeping us going and having us be in a good space and doing good in the world versus sinking into it because it's very easy, it's very tempting. Angelina in the few days after birth had a moment where she felt like dropping into a hole and she was like, I can't because I can't leave David. I can't leave my friends, I can't leave my family. I need to be out of that just to still be present for other people. That's why I think we both blend into that, so it's kept us far away from the hole fortunately. That's very tempting to get there.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

The only thing I can say right now is thank you for being so willing to talk about your story and for sharing such a such an intimate, such a powerful, such a devastating, such a beautiful, all wrapped up together um story with me, with the audience, with anyone who will hear this and will benefit from it. Daniel is a gift that you and Angelina gave to the world. And in your telling his story, he continues to be a gift that keeps giving. And it's one of it it's the weirdest thing to say something like that because again, to reiterate the point, I would help you guys do anything to have him back. And I wish that we would have never met if it meant that you had your son. Nevertheless, here we are, and turning something devastating into something beautiful, you have given the most perfect model of what that is and what that can be like, and I can't thank you enough for having done that and for trusting this platform to do that with.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

Thank you. Just thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for honoring Dania. And I hope that through telling this, at least one other father, mother, someone get something out of this that's useful for them. That helps them.

Dedication And How To Stay Connected

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Thank you for listening today. If you want to stay in the loop of what's going on at Dad Always, go to datalways.com to join the email list to receive updates. This podcast episode is dedicated to the ones we hoped for but never met. And the ones whose time with us was all too brief.